With love in my heart, I write this Open Letter to you.
Scrolling through all the posts in this thread, there is no doubt that you have a wonderful understanding . . . of all you understand. You also skillfully articulate that understanding and defend it with passion. Bravo!
But . . . you also have a big missing piece. (Please don't take this last statement and the 'point-counterpoint' in this thread personally; it is how we learn.) And that missing piece was the subject of my first post here (#5); specifically, the Hitter's Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3 / B). It is this procedure that necessitated -- indeed required in Homer Kelley's own case -- the Pre-Turned Right Hip.
The Angle of Approach procedure and its derived Angle of Approach Plane Angle dictated that a more "inside" Path be made for the Hands in the Backstroke. That Path had nothing to do with Standard Hip Turn (Hips leading Shoulders) or Delayed Hip Turn (Shoulders leading Hips) or whatever. It had solely to do with Homer Kelley realizing that he had to pre-clear his own Right Hip so that his Hands could take the very Steep (but Inside) Backstroke Path. In so doing , the Clubhead could then COVER (not 'Point at' or 'Trace') the Angle of Approach Plane Line.
And COVERING the Angle of Approach (with the Clubhead) is what the Angle of Approach procedure is all about. If the Clubhead merely 'points' at the Angle of Approach (to the originating, geometric 10-5-A Plane Line), then you would be Tracing it, as if it were a 'normal' Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) with its own unique Angle of Approach (and Attack). And that ain't the case: The Angle of Approach Plane retains the identical Impact and Low Points of the original Geometric Plane Line. As Homer so eloquently (and to most readers, mysteriously) stated in the 6th edition, "There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure . . . " .
That last quote is not in your book (I understand you have the 4th edition). Nor is it in the 5th. In fact, Section 2-J-3, the player's Visual Equivalents of the true On Plane Angle of Attack and Arc of Attack, did not even exist in the first three editions of The Golfing Machine. These were the things, Homer would say, that "seeped through slowly". As the Good Lord gave him more time, he wrote them down.
Section 2-J-3 was introduced in the 4th edition and revised extensively over the next four years in the 5th and 6th editions. Still, he wasn't satisfied, and he continued to tweak the verbiage. A final version (transcribed from revisions he left) appeared in the 7th edition, 23 years after his death. None of the information in the earlier editions was wrong, it was just that Homer tried desperately in so many different ways to get the same points across to us . . . points that to him seemed so self-evident and simple, but which he learned we simply could not understand.
Personally, I think mastery of the two Visual Equivalents and their two procedures (Swinger's Arc of Approach and Hitter's Angle of Approach) requires an understanding of Section 2-J-3 in each of the editions 4, 5, 6, and 7. If you don't have those editions, well, you don't have them. One more reason to search my archives.
Putting a red ribbon around our personal give-and-take over the last couple of days, the Pre-Turned Right Hip is not so much a Delayed Hip Action procedure as it is an enabling Angle of Approach procedure.
For 'the rest of us' -- if you've read this far -- I know this post sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook. To which I can only say, in its defense, that it is correct and that it will be worthwhile to those whose journey takes them there. Knowing that, I can sleep. Otherwise . . .
I've wasted an hour of my life.
RED MEAT......Rich fatty caramelized seasoned perfectly.....beautiful stuff here....
YOU HAVE NOT WASTED AN HOUR OF YOUR LIFE....YOU HAVE DELIVERED THE VERY BASIS OF THE SYSTEM THAT IS THE GOLFING MACHINE ....PERFECTLY!!! AS USUAL NO DOUBT!!! GREAT POST....
PIGGY BACKING HERE....
The thing to keep in mind in all this...for the hands to go IN (as stated above particularly in an angle of approach procedure)...the right hip MUST "get outta the way" ...IMO EARLY....this is the beauty of what Homer was systematizing....IN HOMER'S MIND THE EARLIEST WOULD BE....BEFORE THE HIP IS SET "IN MOTION"....Some will achieve the required depth "dynamically"...depth as required by the selected delivery line and/or plane angle...
remember ALL GEOMETRY STEMS FROM IMPACT GEOMETRY.....hence the crucial importance of 2-J-3....the sweetspot is executing a DIFFERENT MOTION IN A HITTING VS. SWINGING PROCEDURE...therefore your delivery lines and hand paths are necessarily different....another factor is the plane angle....essentially the lines in your 2-J-3 Ben Doyle-ish mat on the ground are dictated a. by your procedure b. selected delivery line c. plane angle....so as the plane angle steepens and flattens the delivery lines and hand path NECESSARILY CHANGE...which also implies a change in the pivot....that is why the pictures of the King are sooooooooooo sexy....beautiful GEOMETRY....his swing in his younger days was very much unappreciated....this cat wasn't just a brute....he had HOT lines....
I doubt Palmer had a clue about his procedure....BUT his geometry arrived at likely spontaneously rather than systematically is beautifully compliant with 2-J-3 Angle of Approach Hitting Procedure....Homer states that the pivot is to comply with the delivery line....
Note how AP's shoulder lines, right hip depth in connection to the left knee line and his left arm all are approximately parallel and in my mind ...RELATED TO THE ANGLE OF APPROACH...
Note the standard knee action...allowing the right hip to reach deep....to tilt the hip girdle...tilt the shoulders...achieving a relationship that to me is related to the angle of approach delivery line....
Even his neck and head seem to be tilted such that his eye line is compliant with the angle of approach...
Note the primary lever assembly's (left arm and club)relationship to the right shoulder (back stop in the hitting procedure)...truly an uncompensated alignment from which the right forearm and pivot can LAUNCH/DRIVE OUT...the sweetspot....
Note the beautiful level right wrist (don't so much like the archy left wrist but nobody is perfect)....the hitter being reliant on ALIGNMENTS cannot afford to have a slack laden set of flying wedges...no double cocked slingy wedges...the swinger can get away with it...not the hitter...with his simultaneous release he can't have no double cocked right wrist that he has to wait for cf to line up....very much like keeping the left arm UNDER the right shoulder...no wasted space,motion or slack....lines very much compliant to the selected delivery and release type required to execute the selected hitting procedure...can't count on old cf to help you line up your junk...better have your alignments correct ... the throw out of the sweetspot is "IN YOUR HANDS" literally and figuratively...you won't be getting an assisted from a cf palm to plane karate chop...3 stage rocket release....you got them batteries connected and the firing is happening all at the same time...no building up in this release type.
AP's hands are DEEP...allowing for the Sweetspot to be delivered out to the plane line at a faster rate than the swinger due to the SIMULTANEOUS RELEASE TYPE COMPLIANT with the Hitting Procedure...this is why NO MIXING....the sweetspot is driven out and off the face of the plane EARLIER...so as not to "come over the top"...the handpath is necessarily more inward in the Angle of Approach procedure...the elbow IS NOT PITCHED...it is PUNCH...there fore compliant with the required release type to comply with Hitting.
The left arm striving for depth as dictated by the angle of approach's INWARD direction...the left arm (top leg of the primary lever) NEVER ABOVE THE RIGHT SHOULDER...
THE DUAL AGENT IN THE POWER PACKAGE....ALLOWING THE ABILITY OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER TO MAN HANDLE THE LEFT ARM...LAUNCHING THE PRIMARY LEVER DOWN PLANE IN RELATION TO THE ANGLE OF APPROACH...WITH THE LEFT ARM NEVER RISING ABOVE THE RIGHT SHOULDER(DUAL AGENT..PART OF PIVOT AND POWER PACKAGE) THERE IS CONSIDERABLY LESS "SPACE", "SLACK", "TIME", "MOTION" TO "MAKE UP"....THE HITTER FROM THIS ALIGNMENT CAN IMMEDIATELY BEGIN TO DRIVE THE SWEETSPOT DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE....the clubhead never falling behind the hands as in swinging....
note the comparative lack of depth in the right hip in Toms and Eldrick....Primary Lever ...lifted up...less deep...set up for a delivery line that is the geometric plane line...thus better set up to swing...
Note the picture of Robert Garrett (OLYMPIC DISCUS CHUCKER IN EARLY 1900'S)....preparing to LAUNCH the discus....he would NEVER allow the mass of the discus to rise ABOVE his right shoulder...the mass well below the right shoulder as to have NO SLACK in the system...therefore he can recruit his PIVOT to DRIVE the discus down plane....in studying discus throwing....some of their focus is on LOW POINT...otherwise the discus would be launched too high and out to the right....
Instinctive genius of the King....Systematic Genius of Homer Kelley....
I have been having some FAN-FREAKIN'-TASTIC YELLOW BOOK CONVERSATION ON THIS WITH THE EVIL GENIUS MECHANIC...EDDIE COX....IT MAY JUST BE TIME FOR ANOTHER PINEHURST REUNION????????????......HMMMMMMM?????????????
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-02-2011 at 10:00 AM.
The thing to keep in mind in all this...for the hands to go IN (as stated above particularly in an angle of approach procedure)...the right hip MUST "get outta the way" ...IMO EARLY....this is the beauty of what Homer was systematizing....IN HOMER'S MIND THE EARLIEST WOULD BE....BEFORE THE HIP IS SET "IN MOTION"....
Great stuff, 12pb. Love those pictures.
Just to make sure I understand you correctly...
Are you suggesting that a player using a Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure with Top alignments like the King in your pictures PRETURN HIS HIPS as far as illustrated in these pictures before the backstroke motion (Start Up) starts?
Are you suggesting that a player using a Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure with Top alignments like the King in your pictures PRETURN HIS HIPS as far as illustrated in these pictures before the backstroke motion (Start Up) starts?
Sure....Eddie Cox has developed something along these lines I believe to be a FANTASTIC HITTING pattern....you pre-turn the hips in an amount to approximate the angle of approach...which is basically approximated by your on plane right forearm at address...so in your LOOK LOOK LOOK process you are observing with the pre-turn...the line from your left knee to right hip joint is approximately parallel to the angle of approach 2-J-3 style on the ground....this 3-D imaginary line approximates the direction of your backstroke hand path....those King lines are the MODEL TOP for this particular pattern (less "visually flat left wrist" though ...more geometrically flat). But if you look at the King...he achieved these alignments more in dynamic fashion...but I think it would be much easier with the pre-turn to establish these lines at address...that's where you is going...so why not start there...then all of your path/delivery is right there for you to LOOK LOOK LOOK at...you have an approximation of "this is the path my hands must travel on". GOOD STUFF....
I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
Originally Posted by Par71
At Address or at Impact Fix (which, of course, could be one and the same if you're using Impact Address)?
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
One thing to note on the angle of approach, hitting ARBITRARILY requires 10-5-e closed plane line the listing for the angle of approach procedure is the hitting basic pattern. Also par71s questions are very well pointed, AP has quite a bit of hip turn there and is going on to end.....wouldn't this require a switch to an arc of approach procedure....
Also I would agree with you par71 in that delayed hip action will help the golfer get up the plane better versus a tendency to drag it under(shoulder turn takeaway) with standard hip action along with my previous reasons I believe this to be why he recommended delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern
Definition of arbitrary
Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
(of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.
In other words it may require it if thats what it takes to accomplish it but it does not absolutely require a closed plane line which is very minimal anyway
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
I think I understand you now, 12pb:
You do not try to fix in your mind the (original) Right Forearm Angle of Approach at Impact Fix (or at Address before preturning the Hips) and then preturn the Hips until the line between your Left Knee and your Right Hip becomes parallel to that (remembered) angle.
Instead, you pre-turn the Hips at Adjusted Address (and also pre-straighten the Right Knee) until the line from the Left Knee to the Right Hip is parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach that results from that preturn. So you can simply check these alignments by looking down after the preturn.
You do not try to fix in your mind the (original) Right Forearm Angle of Approach at Impact Fix (or at Address before preturning the Hips) and then preturn the Hips until the line between your Left Knee and your Right Hip becomes parallel to that (remembered) angle.
Instead, you pre-turn the Hips at Adjusted Address (and also pre-straighten the Right Knee) until the line from the Left Knee to the Right Hip is parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach that results from that preturn. So you can simply check these alignments by looking down after the preturn.
YES SIR....
Pre-turn and pre-straighten to allow the abruptly inward hand path as dictated by the AOA...
AOA...10-5-E....inward.....people have made a point that your hands can go too low and underplane...so how do you "adjust" to this inward direction? You are seeing the model...in my mind...
AP's hands are IN but his clubhead is in and UP...how is this accomplished? Sweetspot up and deep hands below shoulder line and deep?
1. Palmer had a MASSIVE amount of hip turn (facilitated by an almost hyper extended right knee and bent left knee) allowing his right shoulder and right hip to reach deeeeep. BUT...why not underplane?
2. The inward component is from the TURNING PIVOT
3. The upward component is from the loading of the right elbow...Palmer elevated the club by bending his right elbow (as well as fanning and retracting it...more inward componet)
4. More upward from the LENGTHENING of his entire right side...right shoulder deep and high ...right hip deep and high...right leg long.....left side compressed....also allowing a centered motion with the AOA geometry...his right shoulder is not really "flat to the plane"...it is more UP AND DEEP to the plane...adjusted 10-5-E AOA plane...more in and steeper
He IS NOT getting up by LIFTING...he is not raising his right humerus bone off his body....this allows his hands and the primary lever assembly to stay BELOW his right shoulder...he can immediately LAUNCH the lever assemblies and wedge structure down AND OUT on plane....his right shoulder is ON TOP of the left arm being the upper leg of the primary lever...providing the initial acceleration and then the LAUNCHING PAD
You'll note if you put yourself in a top position (minus the archy left wrist) like Palmer with one of them ninja sticks or a dowel on the ground aproximating the AOA...your LEFT ARM will also be approximately parallel to the AOA at top...right shoulder and hip joints deep and high...no elevating the club by lifting the arms off the rib cage...upward from the loading of the right elbow..no right wrist cock disrupting the wedges...upward from a long and deep right side..reaching BACK AND STRIVING FOR HEIGHT....
Note the height of the right shoulders and shoulder slant difference....this is basically the difference between pitch and punch elbow and what it does to the rate that you achieve your axis tilt...
Have a look at the swing at the 1:30 mark...BEAUTIFUL...
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-03-2011 at 08:47 AM.
Sure....Eddie Cox has developed something along these lines I believe to be a FANTASTIC HITTING pattern....you pre-turn the hips in an amount to approximate the angle of approach...which is basically approximated by your on plane right forearm at address...so in your LOOK LOOK LOOK process you are observing with the pre-turn...the line from your left knee to right hip joint is approximately parallel to the angle of approach 2-J-3 style on the ground....this 3-D imaginary line approximates the direction of your backstroke hand path....those King lines are the MODEL TOP for this particular pattern (less "visually flat left wrist" though ...more geometrically flat). But if you look at the King...he achieved these alignments more in dynamic fashion...but I think it would be much easier with the pre-turn to establish these lines at address...that's where you is going...so why not start there...then all of your path/delivery is right there for you to LOOK LOOK LOOK at...you have an approximation of "this is the path my hands must travel on". GOOD STUFF....
Unfortunately I can only understand about 10% of the above goobledygook. I did however hit a 2/3 swing PW with Eddie's "hitting pattern" today as far as I normally hit a PW with a full swing. There is some meat on this bone, even I can see. Today was our first of many lessons. I got a lot to learn, but the hour I spent today is a huge step in the right direction.
[video]
Last edited by danattherock : 12-13-2011 at 10:36 PM.
Hybrid Mode
