It's no wonder many TGMers think the hands are moving downward at impact what with all the emphasis on DOWN DOWN DOWN - all the way to China! But the hand path bottoms out well before impact with the club head still lagging behind
You've got the club head correct - REALLY.
However, no "capisce" on the hands. Go to pg 193, fig 10-19-A and look at the hand path for Hitting and Drive Loading - it's curving upward. It's the same for Swinging and any loading or release type. If the hands are moving downward at impact, the club head will have beaten the hands to the ball from the line of sight perspective, and you will have complete lag loss and compression-less impact.
You're trying to not understand. I don't know why unless you have a chip on your shoulder? TGM'ers are nice people.
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The Hands will reach their Closest point to the ground when they're below the Left Shoulder (related to the Ground) but Geometrically its Located when the Right Arm is Fully Straight (Full Extension). So, the Hands Travel Down-Plane until Full Extension regardless of their distance from the Ground. The Hands travel Down-Plane while the Right Elbow is Straightening and Up-Plane while the Left Arm is Folding. Don't confuse "Down-Plane" with the Ground you're standing on, that's "Golf Channel" stuff and stuff you find in golf books for public consumption and by Golf instructors trying to make a living (not all). The Clubhead, Ball and Hands don't know about the Ground and they don't care. They are ruled by Orbit and Low-Point.
Maybe you don't understand the difference between traveling "Down plane" and traveling "Toward the Ground". It will help you understand if you stop thinking that moving toward the ground is "Down plane" and moving away from the ground is "Up Plane".
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3-F-7-E ..... The correct concept of an “On Plane” procedure is driving the Club – not “a little downward and a little outward” – but “Down Plane”. Down Plane to full extension per 2-C-0 and 2-L#2. Also study 2-F, 2-N and 2-P.
I'll try to help:
The Clubhead travels an Orbit and at some point on the Orbit the Leading Edge of the Clubface is Square to the Target Line, the Shaft at its correct Lie Angle and within a Plane perpendicular to the Target Line. This is called Low-Point Geometry and it is an Alignment, and not a specific Location until you designate one.
Imagine the Circle (Orbit) on a Horizontal Plane (see illustration below). Imagine Swinging on a Horizontal Plane and you strike the ball when the Clubshaft is at Right Angles to the Target Line. The Clubhead keeps traveling Down Plane. When does Down Plane stop and Up Plane begin?
Traveling Forward is Down Plane. "Capisce"
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2-C-0 LINEAR FORCE ... Your main lines of defense are the Flat Left Wrist, Hinge Action and a Three Dimensional Downstroke – that is DOWNward (Attack Angle) AND OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Approach Angle) per 2-C-1#2A/B. Study 2-H, 2-N and 7-3.
You're trying to not understand. I don't know why unless you have a chip on your shoulder? TGM'ers are nice people.
I Said:
Maybe you don't understand the difference between traveling "Down plane" and traveling "Toward the Ground". It will help you understand if you stop thinking that moving toward the ground is "Down plane" and moving away from the ground is "Up Plane".
I'll try to help:
The Clubhead travels an Orbit and at some point on the Orbit the Leading Edge of the Clubface is Square to the Target Line, the Shaft at its correct Lie Angle and within a Plane perpendicular to the Target Line. This is called Low-Point Geometry and it is an Alignment, and not a specific Location until you designate one.
Imagine the Circle (Orbit) on a Horizontal Plane (see illustration below). Imagine Swinging on a Horizontal Plane and you strike the ball when the Clubshaft is at Right Angles to the Target Line. The Clubhead keeps traveling Down Plane. When does Down Plane stop and Up Plane begin?
Traveling Forward is Down Plane. "Capisce"
Honestly, you can't be serious - can you? You said that the hands and club head are moving down plane at impact, which means according to your latest rationalization that even if the club head is moving upwards with respect to the ground, it is still traveling "down" plane. It would not be, it would be "on" plane and moving upward. The clubhead moves backward, upward, and inward on the BS, where upward means with respect to the ground. These are Homer's words(2-F, last paragraph). On the DS, the clubhead moves forward, downward, and outward to low point and then forward, upward and inward, where downward and upward are in reference to the ground. You are confusing Down Plane with On Plane.
Now for the hands - the hands move "off" plane well before impact because Throwout commences before impact, and they follow the hand path - are we to assume by your reasoning that as they arc upward they are still going "down" the hand path even though they are moving upward from the ground?
Forward is Down Plane only only until low point, that's what you need to "capische".
Now for the hands - the hands move "off" plane well before impact because Throwout commences before impact, and they follow the hand path - .......
MJ, where did you read, or what makes you think that the Hands move Off-Plane? That theory goes against any current Swing Theory.
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
Forward is Down Plane only only until low point, that's what you need to "capische".
After Low-Point, aren't the Club and Hands and Pivot moving Forward (Down Plane)? Although you think that "Forward" is not the same as "Down Plane" I'm sure you must agree that the Hands and Club are moving "Forward" after Impact. I don't know anyone that would claim the Hands and Club stop moving Forward after Impact.
Down the Road (Forward)
Down the Path (Forward)
Down the Aisle (Forward)
MJ, where did you read, or what makes you think that the Hands move Off-Plane? That theory goes against any current Swing Theory.
After Low-Point, aren't the Club and Hands and Pivot moving Forward (Down Plane)? Although you think that "Forward" is not the same as "Down Plane" I'm sure you must agree that the Hands and Club are moving "Forward" after Impact. I don't know anyone that would claim the Hands and Club stop moving Forward after Impact.
Down the Road (Forward)
Down the Path (Forward)
Down the Aisle (Forward)
Even in the TSP Swing where the hands and right shoulder are on plane from the Top, the hands move off plane when Throwout starts as the left shoulder moves off plane. If the hands stayed on the swing plane, the sweet spot would fly out over the ball, unless the shaft was exactly in line with the left forearm, which is virtually impossible, even if the left wrist were totally uncocked at impact instead of level as it should be. After Throwout starts, the hands move farther inside away from the base line as the golfer sees them, because the Left Flying Wedge is moving off plane.
Of course the hands are moving forward after impact(and during impact), but not "down".
Even in the TSP Swing where the hands and right shoulder are on plane from the Top, the hands move off plane when Throwout starts as the left shoulder moves off plane. If the hands stayed on the swing plane, the sweet spot would fly out over the ball, unless the shaft was exactly in line with the left forearm, which is virtually impossible, even if the left wrist were totally uncocked at impact instead of level as it should be. After Throwout starts, the hands move farther inside away from the base line as the golfer sees them, because the Left Flying Wedge is moving off plane.
Of course the hands are moving forward after impact(and during impact), but not "down".
10 years ago I would have agreed with you. 10 years from today (hopefully sooner) you'll agree with me.
Im still yet to master the right forearm timing ,I have found it a few times and the ball goes so much further,armed with your last post(and a great one at that)I will attempt to attain my optimum mix of r/forearm and cen force,once happy ,i will ingrain it so its there naturally,I really needed to know if it is wise to mix right forearm and how to apply it,your words"down plane" may well be the key.....thank ALL for contributing ....cheers
Im still yet to master the right forearm timing ,I have found it a few times and the ball goes so much further,armed with your last post(and a great one at that)I will attempt to attain my optimum mix of r/forearm and cen force,once happy ,i will ingrain it so its there naturally,I really needed to know if it is wise to mix right forearm and how to apply it,your words"down plane" may well be the key.....thank ALL for contributing ....cheers
It will be the key to the gate of golfing hell if you interpret "down plane" to mean that the right forearm is moving downward at impact!
Do you honestly believe that the hand path lies in the swing plane at impact?
If so, it will be just as implausible in 10 yrs as it is today and I can only hope newcomers to TGM don't believe what you're writing!
Dozens of examples. But no one needs the yellow book to understand that the #3 PP needs to be On Plane at Impact. I have no idea what you're thinking. It could help if you explain your concept of "the Swing Plane".
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2-F PLANE OF MOTION All the action of the Golf Club takes place on a flat, inflexible, Inclined Plane which extends well beyond the circumference of the stroke – in every direction. The full length of the Clubshaft remains unwaveringly on the face of this Inclined Plane – Waggle to Follow-through. Every other Component of the Stroke must be adjusted to comply with that requirement. See Sketch 1-L. That includes the Right Forearm. See 5-0. The player must hold the Forearm in the Feel of the same plane per 7-3, dynamically in-line. Picture the javelin thrower with the right elbow and On Plane right forearm leading the hand toward the target (Delivery Line) all during Delivery. See 6-B-1. The Right Forearm of every Hacker comes into Impact too high – pointing beyond the Delivery Line during Downstroke (2-J-3, 7-3). Study 2-G and Components 5, 6, and 7.
Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot – the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a “Clubshaft” Plane and a “Sweet Spot,” or “Swing”, Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, “Plane Angle” and “Plane Line” always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. Expect during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and – from, either Plane because the Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot – not vice versa. So Clubhead “Feel” is Clubhead Lag Pressure (6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact – that mysterious “Shank.” When in doubt, “Turn” the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and Sweet Spot will be on the same plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.
Well, if both Planes pass through the "Lag Pressure Point" .....then pick a Plane. Either one, the Hands are On Plane
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3-F-5
.......The Address Waggle is a miniature reproduction of the action of the Zone #2 components through Impact j- checking out the Power Alignments. That is – the Grip and Hand action applications of the Accumulators and Pressure Points. Especially the On Plane location and direction of the Hands and Clubshaft for Impact. The “Start Down” Waggle does the same for the Top alignments and could be treated as part of the Practice Stroke. It’s a “Look, Look, Look” situation (3-B) – especially for beginners – to develop Monitoring skill. It should be repeated until the motion is being satisfactorily executed. It can, and should, be taken on through the Address Waggle area. Check for On Plane Clubshaft and Right Shoulder (2-F), for the Right Forearm tracing the Delivery Line (5-0, 10-5-0) and for “Clearing the Right Hip” (2-N-0, 10-14). Returning to Address Position may be optional. All this gives a clear picture of the Downstroke activities – instead of the usual “Downstroke Black-out.” See 7-2 and 12-3-18.
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6-B-3-0-1 THE FLYING WEDGES
The Clubhead may appear to move in an arc around and outside the Hands when related to the Left Arm – the very basic Left Arm Flying Wedge. But when related to the Right Forearm, it appears to move “On Plane” with the Right Forearm, at its normal rigid angle (Bent Right Wrist) – the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. So – except in Sections 1 and 3 (Chapter '8') the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane – the plane of the Left Wristcock motion. At the same time, the Right Forearm and the Clubshaft are, in like manner, positioned on the plane of the Right Wrist Bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly and alignment of the Power Package structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging. Study 4-D-1 regarding “Grip” and “Flat Left Wrist”. Also see 7-3. Then, ideally, the Left Wrist is always Flat and the Right Wrist is always Level (4-A-1, 4-B-1).
I don't know, what do ya think Homer Kelley would say?? Are the Hands On Plane at Impact?
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