OK guys good stuff...... But since I can't get out on the range I don't want to get confused.
Ok I have taken the club back and am ready to start the downswing. I have been taught the following by TGM teachers.
Plant my heel and my right shoulder goes to the ball. My hands go to the ball accelerating the club longitudinally. I have been encouraged to swing flatter so that "the club should feel like it is coming out of the center of my back" ie on the elbow plane. So I am trying to put all this together with some of the thoughts you have posted. My question is if I start down with the shoulder going to the ball, my hands going to the ball and I am going to spin the flywheel with the swinging procedure how is that going to feel like the club is coming out of the center of my back as it appears Hogan's does. Once the shoulder and the hands start at the ball it seems the die is cast and its going to feel everything is coming off of the right shoulder. Of course if I have abducted my right arm to my side I know I have flattened my plane. and when viewed down the line it might look like the club is coming from my mid back. To further complicate these feels is the feeling of the right forearm on plane with the shaft at address and through out the backswing vs setting up with the hands lower at address. Going even further is working in the hands feeling high or low at impact !!!. So I hope you keep discussing this so it makes more sense to me.
Lets see if we can see and understand the Plane Shift in the same way. The Plane Shift does not need to occur at Release. I think that for many Golfers the Plane Shift does occur at Release but both Hogan and Fowler Plane Shift at Startdown and their Sequenced Releases occur on the Elbow Plane.
Your observation of the Post Impact Clubshaft Angle at Follow-through is correct. I don't think that they're on the same Plane that they were at Impact. But I don't equate that with Hitting or Swinging. I would equate that with "Pivot Controlled Hands". It's allowing the Pivot to control the Alignments. I'm sure that they could teach their Pivot to move their Hands like Hogan moved His Hands but I think that the jury is still out on Hogan whether he used Pivot Controlled Hands vs Hands Controlled Pivot.
Can we separately discuss Plane Shifts because I think that either Acceleration Procedure, Hitting or Swinging can use any shift and any number of Shifts and almost anywhere in the Swing except Release through Follow-Through.
Ok . . . I certainly agree that from impact to delivery Hogan and Fowler execute a plane shift (most do) . . . BUT . . . I think Hogan is pretty much executing ON PLANE as much as anybody ever has from delivery through the ball. Hogan's hands are riding the plane in my opinion . . . Fowler's hands are above or the plane line has shifted right. People like to say Fowler swings like Hogan . . . not even close in my opinion. With Fowler it looks like CF is in control . . .everything trying to get "in line". Could be wrong . . .
Ok . . . I certainly agree that from impact to delivery Hogan and Fowler execute a plane shift (most do) . . . BUT . . . I think Hogan is pretty much executing ON PLANE as much as anybody ever has from delivery through the ball. Hogan's hands are riding the plane in my opinion . . . Fowler's hands are above or the plane line has shifted right. People like to say Fowler swings like Hogan . . . not even close in my opinion. With Fowler it looks like CF is in control . . .everything trying to get "in line". Could be wrong . . .
Would you pleas look at your first sentence. You said "Impact to delivery"?
I agree that Fowler and Hogan look very different post Impact. But I don't think that it involves CF. I think that Fowler lets his pivot control the alignments and he Fully Flattens his Right Wrist and he doesn't yet see the need to Swing On-Plane from Impact to Both arms straight.
Hogans Hands ARE riding the Plane. Question?? is that his Pivot steering his Hands? Would Hogan do that? I don't think so because doing that on every shot, partial to full and every club wouldn't lend to his consistency. I think that Hogans intention was to swing On-Plane and he taught his Pivot to accommodate that.
I cant find my 5 lessons did Hogan really equate the pane of glass to the Plane the Shoulders turn on? That pretty darn steep, I dont recollect him doing that.....That'd be steeper than Rotated wouldnt it?
One thing I gotta note: The Right Shoulder is part of the Power Package in that it takes the Power Package the Hands down the Inclined Plane in Startdown. The right shoulder Drags, the Power Package down the Inclined Plane .....towards the ball, briefly during Startdown. This move relates to "Startdown Waggles" and/or Mr Hogans demonstration of what he termed "the most important move in golf" in the Shells WW of Golf video available on this site.
Sure forget about the angle . . . The principle is the hands never GET ABOVE THE SHOULDER LINE. Shoulder stay on top of the hands and arms . . .
The start down waggle .. . . . you watch that video . . . what he demonstrates and what he does . . . COMPLETELY DIFFERENT . . . . Hogans right shoulder DOES NOT DROP DOWN VERTICALLY EARLY AND HIS HIPS SPIN EARLY . . . DON'T HAPPEN . . . everybody looks at him doing them super slow mo demonstration swings . . . he didn't swing like that either . . .
Hogan thought he did this . . . . FEEL
But he REALLY did this . . . REAL
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-23-2010 at 05:56 PM.
Would you pleas look at your first sentence. You said "Impact to delivery"?
I agree that Fowler and Hogan look very different post Impact. But I don't think that it involves CF. I think that Fowler lets his pivot control the alignments and he Fully Flattens his Right Wrist and he doesn't yet see the need to Swing On-Plane from Impact to Both arms straight.
Hogans Hands ARE riding the Plane. Question?? is that his Pivot steering his Hands? Would Hogan do that? I don't think so because doing that on every shot, partial to full and every club wouldn't lend to his consistency. I think that Hogans intention was to swing On-Plane and he taught his Pivot to accommodate that.
Furyk is closer to Hogan than Fowler thru the ball . . . Fowler is freakish . . . I'm not sure I see any alignments? Free ride
Sure forget about the angle . . . The principle is the hands never GET ABOVE THE SHOULDER LINE. Shoulder stay on top of the hands and arms . . .
The start down waggle .. . . . you watch that video . . . what he demonstrates and what he does . . . COMPLETELY DIFFERENT . . . . Hogans right shoulder DOES NOT DROP DOWN VERTICALLY EARLY AND HIS HIPS SPIN EARLY . . . DON'T HAPPEN . . . everybody looks at him doing them super slow mo demonstration swings . . . he didn't swing like that either . . .
Hogan thought he did this . . . . FEEL
But he REALLY did this . . . REAL
Totally agree, what he demonstrated and what he did were different. He does not do a "Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn" in his demonstration but he does in his real swing. The Slide tilts his Shoulder Axis which lowers his Right Shoulder a very good thing.
I dont have the 7th edition but isnt Hip Slide with Delayed Turn the reco in chapter 12? I sure love it ...........as does V.J. Trolio (aint it his secret?) and Brian Gay and Lynn Blake and Homer was a freaking genius with the TSP and Standard Shoulder turn.
Could you clarify a few things for me . . . . what do you mean by "hang back" in your Drive Loading reference? Just because the right shoulder moves in and doesn't "hang back" are we to infer "4 barrels" are being employed?
The Right Shoulder , the Pivot moves through the shot , powers the shot, for the Swinger or for the 4B Hitter..........(a Hitter who Drag Loads in Startdown like a Swinger but then Thrusts in Release).
Quote:
But lets distinguish a Drag Load Startdown from a Drive Load Startdown just isolating the shoulder motion (if we can . . . maybe you can't just isolate that one piece).
OK .....regarding 12-1 and 12-2, Drive vs Drag.......to my mind the difference in Right Shoulder motion is a result of the work provided by the Right Shoulder within each. The right arm attaches to the Right Shoulder at one end and the grip at the other. In 12-1 Drive Loading. The Right Arm Drives , Actively extends (in most cases in a side armed throwing motion, fanning and bending) off of the Right Shoulder which provides no thrust or work of its own although it can move (especially in longer shots from Top to Release). Right Shoulder "Motion but not Work" in Total Motion.
Where as the Swinger, Drag Loader, the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder through the shot with the Right Shoulder working , providing accelerating force to the club. Here the Right Shoulder spins the Left Shoulder which pulls the Left Arm which attaches to the club.
EAch procedure has its own associated pressure points as well but thats a different bit of business.
So in Drive Loading, depending on the length of shot at hand the Right Shoulder can be essentially motionless or move during the Delivery of the Fully Loaded power package to its Release Point (from Top to Release) but this is not powering anything.....just delivering. Which I call "hanging back" maybe I shouldnt of used that term cause its no where to be found in the book or Lynns words.
4B at least the version I know......You Drag Load in Startdown then Drive in Release. The Right Shoulder , the Pivot providing work, power and the Right Arm extending against it like a Launching Pad that is also moving. Meaning added power. But with a cost....which is also another matter.
I see Hogan's Right Shoulder moving right on through the shot beautifully, like everything else he does. I see Longitudinal Acceleration, " arrow from quiver" ,Rope Handling, Active Left Wrist ....all classically associated with and indicative of Drag Loading in Startdown. He is Drag Loading for sure in Startdown...
But what he did at Release , while he is typically thought to be Swinging there too, would be an interesting discussion. One that could take us Hitting given the existence of what Homer termed the X Classification Throws........the unlisted throws that Homer knew were out there but remained unidentified during his time.
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