12 Piece,
Out of steam right now, but 5-0 3rd paragraph somes it up pretty well - from the A) Hand Controlled issue, to the B) dictating to the FEET as well as the clubshaft, to C) clearing the right hip - "Hula Hula" importance posted by "Power Package" in post #27. (And thanks for the nice comments PowerPackage!)
In regards to "Do you ever graduate?"- well, maybe not- but it's the learning that's fun, i.e. the goal of accomplishing the graduation- that you don't have, that's the exciting part, not the graduation itself.
Finally, here is a final thought for you- that I'm just going to throw out- anotherwords it's not going to be as detailed as it could or should be.
There is definitely alot more detail and potential discovery in regards to really understanding the hand controlled pivot concept- Homer had it correct but just touched on the subject- and I think most of us either consciously or subconsciously realize that.
So everthing really flows from the movements made at the hands, and then the forearms, arms and so on.
For example, as Powerpackage essentially said- clearing the hip is so important it should be an imperative.
So we've got three basic options for clearing the right hip. 1) Just take your hands down the plane and in order to do that - you'll have to clear the hip in order for the elbow not to crash into it. 2) Take the hands up to the top, then practice your start down waggles and train your pivot to clear the hip- Look, Look, Look until you can turn those mechanics into the proper feel.
Those first two are the basic Golfing Machine approaches- the third approach is as follows- and I'm going to cover it quickly without alot of detail. When you pronate (palm down) with the forearm- the pattern of movement is as follows: the arm straightens, and the shoulder moves forward. That's basic reaching out pattern of movement to grab something. Let's review- reach out and grab something on the table- say with your left hand, it's pronation of the left forearm, extension of the arm, lateral abduction of the upper arm from the torso (i.e. moves out to the side slightly) and forward movement of the clavicle of the shoulder girdle. Now, as you bring back that little bug to eat, the opposite pattern occurs, supination of the forearm, flexion of the arm, lateral adduction of the upper arm (elbow comes back towards the midline of the body) and retraction of the shoulder girdle. So you've got these patterns of movement that flow through the body. So in alot of sports motions and golf here's how you do it.
Let's assume that we are all right handed golfers.
Stand up and put your hands palms facing in front of you, with your arms parallel to the ground, and the hands vertical to the ground - or the back of your left hand (target hand) facing the target. Now, we're going to go through one motion and see the pattern of motion flow through the body. So, turn i.e. supinate your left hand (palm facing the sky) and pronate your right hand (palm facing the ground)- do that as much as you can- anotherwords hit the extreme range of motion. Hold it there. You should see the pattern emerging that I described above, the left arm wants to bend the right wants to become straight, the left elbow wants to come towards the mid-line, the left shoulder lowers, the right shoulder raises. Because of those motions, the hips have slid- the left hip has cleared to the right, so on and so on. Note this is the opposite of what the right hander wants to happen on the backswing. But if we start back at the beginning and pronate the left forearm and supinate the right forearm, then you'll see the proper downswing motion for the right handed golfer- right elbow flexes and the upper right arm wants to externally rotate i.e. the elbow wants to come into the body (say pitch position), that creates lateral flexion of the trunk (hip slide), and all of those movements: 1) the flexion of the right arm, 2)the external rotation of the humerus (elbow moving towards the mid body), 3) retraction of the right shoulder girdle 4) the lateral flexion of the trunk on the right side, all keep that right should back and down- i.e. on plane.
So- to make the quick jump- the pronation and supination of the forearms are crucial and one of the first links to the whole thing working correctly. And in the golf swing, the basic program may be as follows: Start in the standing position with palms facing and arms parallel to the ground, back of the left hand facing the target- You'll just be turning the forearms in this excercise, but I'll be noting if you were swinging a golf club where you would be in the swing.
1) Supinate the right forearm (right palm faces the sky) and Pronate the left forearm (left palm faces the ground). (In golf - your half way back - clubshaft parallel to the ground)
2) Now, fully pronate the right forearm (right palm faces the ground), and fully supinate the left forearm (left palm faces the sky). (In golf- your at the top/end of the backswing)
3) Now, fully supinate the right forearm (right palm facing the sky) and fully pronate the left forearm (left palm facing the ground). (In golf- your half way down on the downswing- clubshaft parallel to the ground)
4) Now, pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm until your back to the beginning- back of left hand facing the target and both hands vertical to the ground. (In golf, your now at impact)
You might try it- those kind of joint motions starting at the hands will produce and create the kind of body motions that result in clubhead lag and on-plane motion, clearing the right hip, etc, etc. In a full motion swing, you need to concentrate on 1, 2, 3 but 4 will take care of itself via centrifugal force.
I think that's some of the additional information you'll need to get that diploma!
12 Piece,
Out of steam right now, but 5-0 3rd paragraph somes it up pretty well - from the A) Hand Controlled issue, to the B) dictating to the FEET as well as the clubshaft, to C) clearing the right hip - "Hula Hula" importance posted by "Power Package" in post #27. (And thanks for the nice comments PowerPackage!)
In regards to "Do you ever graduate?"- well, maybe not- but it's the learning that's fun, i.e. the goal of accomplishing the graduation- that you don't have, that's the exciting part, not the graduation itself.
Finally, here is a final thought for you- that I'm just going to throw out- anotherwords it's not going to be as detailed as it could or should be.
There is definitely alot more detail and potential discovery in regards to really understanding the hand controlled pivot concept- Homer had it correct but just touched on the subject- and I think most of us either consciously or subconsciously realize that.
So everthing really flows from the movements made at the hands, and then the forearms, arms and so on.
For example, as Powerpackage essentially said- clearing the hip is so important it should be an imperative.
So we've got three basic options for clearing the right hip. 1) Just take your hands down the plane and in order to do that - you'll have to clear the hip in order for the elbow not to crash into it. 2) Take the hands up to the top, then practice your start down waggles and train your pivot to clear the hip- Look, Look, Look until you can turn those mechanics into the proper feel.
Those first two are the basic Golfing Machine approaches- the third approach is as follows- and I'm going to cover it quickly without alot of detail. When you pronate (palm down) with the forearm- the pattern of movement is as follows: the arm straightens, and the shoulder moves forward. That's basic reaching out pattern of movement to grab something. Let's review- reach out and grab something on the table- say with your left hand, it's pronation of the left forearm, extension of the arm, lateral abduction of the upper arm from the torso (i.e. moves out to the side slightly) and forward movement of the clavicle of the shoulder girdle. Now, as you bring back that little bug to eat, the opposite pattern occurs, supination of the forearm, flexion of the arm, lateral adduction of the upper arm (elbow comes back towards the midline of the body) and retraction of the shoulder girdle. So you've got these patterns of movement that flow through the body. So in alot of sports motions and golf here's how you do it.
Let's assume that we are all right handed golfers.
Stand up and put your hands palms facing in front of you, with your arms parallel to the ground, and the hands vertical to the ground - or the back of your left hand (target hand) facing the target. Now, we're going to go through one motion and see the pattern of motion flow through the body. So, turn i.e. supinate your left hand (palm facing the sky) and pronate your right hand (palm facing the ground)- do that as much as you can- anotherwords hit the extreme range of motion. Hold it there. You should see the pattern emerging that I described above, the left arm wants to bend the right wants to become straight, the left elbow wants to come towards the mid-line, the left shoulder lowers, the right shoulder raises. Because of those motions, the hips have slid- the left hip has cleared to the right, so on and so on. Note this is the opposite of what the right hander wants to happen on the backswing. But if we start back at the beginning and pronate the left forearm and supinate the right forearm, then you'll see the proper downswing motion for the right handed golfer- right elbow flexes and the upper right arm wants to externally rotate i.e. the elbow wants to come into the body (say pitch position), that creates lateral flexion of the trunk (hip slide), and all of those movements: 1) the flexion of the right arm, 2)the external rotation of the humerus (elbow moving towards the mid body), 3) retraction of the right shoulder girdle 4) the lateral flexion of the trunk on the right side, all keep that right should back and down- i.e. on plane.
So- to make the quick jump- the pronation and supination of the forearms are crucial and one of the first links to the whole thing working correctly. And in the golf swing, the basic program may be as follows: Start in the standing position with palms facing and arms parallel to the ground, back of the left hand facing the target- You'll just be turning the forearms in this excercise, but I'll be noting if you were swinging a golf club where you would be in the swing.
1) Supinate the right forearm (right palm faces the sky) and Pronate the left forearm (left palm faces the ground). (In golf - your half way back - clubshaft parallel to the ground) 2) Now, fully pronate the right forearm (right palm faces the ground), and fully supinate the left forearm (left palm faces the sky). (In golf- your at the top/end of the backswing)3) Now, fully supinate the right forearm (right palm facing the sky) and fully pronate the left forearm (left palm facing the ground). (In golf- your half way down on the downswing- clubshaft parallel to the ground)
4) Now, pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm until your back to the beginning- back of left hand facing the target and both hands vertical to the ground. (In golf, your now at impact)
You might try it- those kind of joint motions starting at the hands will produce and create the kind of body motions that result in clubhead lag and on-plane motion, clearing the right hip, etc, etc. In a full motion swing, you need to concentrate on 1, 2, 3 but 4 will take care of itself via centrifugal force.
I think that's some of the additional information you'll need to get that diploma!
Mike,
This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you for these posts.
I assume you are describing a Swinging procedure with the exercise. To put a "label" on these motions, I would say that #1 describes the "start up swivel" and #4 describes the "release swivel".
I'm probably doing something wrong because I don't do step #2. Once I reach the step #1 position, I maintain it to the top and back down to club once again parallel to the ground.
Bob,
I'm not saying this is necessarily the "proper" way to swing.
But
A) it touches on the issues of how these particular joint motions create patterns through the other joints.
B) secondly, the control and flow should be from the contact point back through the body- that ties in with the "intention", anotherwords if kicking a soccer ball then it would be the motion of the foot / lower leg that would create the other joint motions.
C)So I wanted to have you make that "exagerated" movement to see the principles at work. So in that context, at halfway back you need to twist your forearms to the opposite extreme by the time you get to the top. From there as you think of taking the hands down plane- they have only one way to move- untwist- until halfway down the again move the other way to impact- from the top- if you just make the motion or sense the force- I think it should pretty much happen- certainly on the downswing your letting that happen- not trying to make it happen- you've already set it up.
Again, with your hands out in front of you- palms facing- wrists vertical to the ground. Your saying that you turn the left one palm down and the right palm up- and that's your motion to the top of the forearms. Then on the downswing- they move back to vertical from release to impact. Essentially, your starting at vertical, turning, then returning to vertical. Notice the difference in potential power when you do what I'm suggesting you try to see the patterns of joint motions.
Start at vertical, turn (1/2 way back- left forearm pronated, and right forearm supinated), then from halfway back- to the top your completely rotating your left forearm to supination and the right forearm to pronation, much different than you're currently doing. Now, here's the big potential difference, in this "exagerated" movement besides created the proper body movements as a result of the left forearm pronating and the right forearm supinating on the first half of the downswing, you've got this whole extra power source added to the handspeed- that left forearm pronation and right forearm supination is adding tremendous speed to the clubhead in addition to your handspeed.
We are in the LAB- so in this context I'm just throwing some ideas out. So, back to your question what are you missing? Yes, step two and three. But remember I'm saying at this stage and this context play around with the concept - And see if you can that this extreme forearm rotations A) create some of the corresponding body movements that I described above and B) did you acquire more distance as a result of the added clubhead speed. Then report back (anyone) and see what kind of feedback you have.
I hit balls on the range today using the procedure set out by Mike O. in his posts #29 and #31. I did this with my pitching wedge after first hitting about 20 balls with my regular Swinging procedure. I made about 15 - 20 rehearsal swings to get the sequence down. There is no mirror on the range for me to "see" what was happening, so all I concerned myself with was getting the correct sequence of pronation - supination - pronation - supination (note: I quickly found that concentrating only on what my left hand was doing worked best for me).
This created a feeling unlike anything I had previously experienced -- sort of a "Jim Furyk Gone Wild" feeling.
When I hit the first ball with this method, my hands felt very "oily" and "quick" through Release and Impact. The ball went 10 yards farther than my previous best. I hit 10 balls, all of which went farther than the first 20 with my "old" method. I then went back and forth, doing an A - B comparison. "New" beat "Old" on all but one shot.
On the range, I couldn't tell what my body (pivot) was doing because I was concentrating too much on just hitting my hand positions. But the whole motion felt very coordinated and I finished nicely on balance. I also noticed I didn't pull any shots -- one of my tendencies with the short irons.
I was surprised after I got home and was able to watch this swing in the mirror. It didn't look all that much different than my normal swing -- and it certainly didn't look like Jim Furyk on acid.
It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence. I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1).
I hit balls on the range today using the procedure set out by Mike O. in his posts #29 and #31. I did this with my pitching wedge after first hitting about 20 balls with my regular Swinging procedure. I made about 15 - 20 rehearsal swings to get the sequence down. There is no mirror on the range for me to "see" what was happening, so all I concerned myself with was getting the correct sequence of pronation - supination - pronation - supination (note: I quickly found that concentrating only on what my left hand was doing worked best for me).
This created a feeling unlike anything I had previously experienced -- sort of a "Jim Furyk Gone Wild" feeling.
When I hit the first ball with this method, my hands felt very "oily" and "quick" through Release and Impact. The ball went 10 yards farther than my previous best. I hit 10 balls, all of which went farther than the first 20 with my "old" method. I then went back and forth, doing an A - B comparison. "New" beat "Old" on all but one shot.
On the range, I couldn't tell what my body (pivot) was doing because I was concentrating too much on just hitting my hand positions. But the whole motion felt very coordinated and I finished nicely on balance. I also noticed I didn't pull any shots -- one of my tendencies with the short irons.
I was surprised after I got home and was able to watch this swing in the mirror. It didn't look all that much different than my normal swing -- and it certainly didn't look like Jim Furyk on acid.
It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence. I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1).
Mike O. -- you're on to something.
Bob,
Thanks for being a guinea pig! It was fun to see that you understood what I was describing- and why some would or would not see results with it (it's not a miracle cure- just a part of the puzzle that some have and some don't), it was also nice to here your results- which was what I was describing also.
Your quote:
"It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence."
Your description of above is correct- that supination starting the downswing of the right forearm (that happens automatically- if you got up there with the right forearm pronated), combined with the related right arm motions of right humerus adduction and external rotation, and that flow through the other joints, really add power to the clubhead motion. You've effectively lengthened the downswing- by creating those additional movements. It's no different than throwing a football- at the top of the backswing the front of the ball is facing behind you i.e. you've flipped it around with the pronation of the right forearm. Notice how much less power you would have if you hadn't done that. That's how you were hitting the ball before.
Your Quote:
"I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1)."
That's correct- you created a pattern, starting with how/where in space you moved your hands- that changed the forearm motion, that changed the upper arm motion, that changed the shoulder motion, that changed the hip motion, that changed the lower body motion- getting you closer to a hand- controlled pivot. The irony is that you got the pivot more involved- automatically. Versus before - to clear that right hip or to make prevent from coming over the top- you had to have a pivot controlled procedure- antherwords you had to think about moving the pivot because of improper hand/arm motions- such as trig was mentioning earlier in this thread. And so you didn't need to think about the pivot to make it move- and yet it was moving alot more - or functioning more on auto-pilot.
Mike O's Diabolical Hand Controlled Pivot Experiment
Cool! Wasn't able to hit balls but took some "dry" swings in the mirror like this. I looked like a goof-ball (well more of a goofball) with the supinated left hand (palm facing the sky). But man when the sequenced is reversed everything quickly falls into place. It just happens. The pivot looks better, better axis tilt, better storage . . . all without having to "think" about it.
This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you for these posts.
I assume you are describing a Swinging procedure with the exercise. To put a "label" on these motions, I would say that #1 describes the "start up swivel" and #4 describes the "release swivel".
I'm probably doing something wrong because I don't do step #2. Once I reach the step #1 position, I maintain it to the top and back down to club once again parallel to the ground.
What am I missing?
Mike,
To piggy back on RCW's question . . . where would the club be pointing in step #2 based on the pronation of the right forearm? "across the line" or "laid off"?
Also, when you define "hands" are we talking humerous bone, forearms, wrists, hands and fingers?
I agree with RCW you are "on to something."
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 01-30-2006 at 11:03 PM.
I just wanted to put up some of 5-0 for everyone to see the platform from which Mike has launched this starship.
The Hands are the “Command Post” for all Feel processing. As the Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as the dictate to the Club. No Negative (Off Course) Feedback can get to – or from – the Clubhead except through the Hands. Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never even be suspected. Monitor all three elements of the Club (1-L) by way of the Hands – never directly. The Hands are much easier to Monitor than the Clubhead because their travel is so much more even and slower (2-K-6). The first step in this Educational Process “Look, Look, Look” per 3-B. If you feel your game isn’t reflecting your understanding of Alignments- STOP MONITORING THE CLUBFACE INSTEAD OF YOUR HANDS. And, unless otherwise specified, at all times – but especially during Start Down- maintain the Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line – not the body. That – failure to clear Right Hip (Roundhouse) can initiate almost every alignment disruption, including SHANKING (2-F, 3-F-7-E, 6-C-2). Constantly upgrade their information storage and retrieval as with any other computer.
“Monitoring” is awareness – through “Feel”, “Feedback”, sensation – of the location, condition, direction etc. of any element for any purpose. When you watch as you reach for your cup, you are unaware fo your hands. But with your eyes closed you are acutely dependent on them. Then notice how quickly they can adapt when “monitored.” Golfers have the same problem. Because your eyes must be on the Ball, they cannot watch the Club. So swing the Club with your eyes closed until you realize how consciousness of the Club, per se, is so disruptive as compared with consciousness of the Hands. Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS. Some players use the Club only to develop its TOTAL equivalent in Lag Pressure Point Feel. That is – until the Hands no longer consciously Monitor the Clubhead or the Body – only themselves, and automatically dictate total Component compliance with Delivery Path (6-E) and Delivery Line (2-J-3) requirements (7-23). Both are Monitored by the Hands but the Delivery Lines, in addition, must be “Traced” by the Right Forearm. For the ARC of Approach Delivery Line that relationship is with true geometric Plane Line, itself. The Plane Line – being the Basic – can substitute any of its “Visual Equivalents” at any time. In either or both directions. Because the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are on the same Plane during Release and Impact (7-3), players actually Monitor the Clubhead Delivery Line by “Tracing” along it with the Right Forearm with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens causing its beam to move along the Reference Line. Study 2-N and 4-D.
Mike you are a credit to all Machinists! Thanks! B
To piggy back on RCW's question . . . where would the club be pointing in step #2 based on the pronation of the right forearm? "across the line" or "laid off"? It could be right on plane- but at this level I'm not integrating the plane - just isolating the concept of patterns of joint motions and noting the added movement/and power in that kind of backswing.
Also, when you define "hands" are we talking humerous bone, forearms, wrists, hands and fingers? You'd have to define the context of the question, but as a general answer I would say not the fingers, and the hands are the hands. However, what you try to do with your hands can create different movements in your upper arm (humerus), your forearms, and your wrists.
). 
Hybrid Mode
