Hogan Right Shoulder Motion Elbow Plane Hitter

[Daryl]

Sure why not . . . . make your case for Swinging . . .

I don't want to argue the point and It doesn't bother me if he Hit-Swung-Swat-Swit or nibbled on the ball, but are you using the glossary definitions included in the 6th Edition?

HITTING AND SWINGING Example – the catapult vs. the sling.
Mechanical – Continuous thrust producing steady acceleration of a hinged beam is Hitting action. A rotating arm pulling steadily on a weighted line is a swinging action.
Golf – Accelerating the Club radially with Right Arm Thrust is Hitting. Accelerating the Club longitudinally, with either arm is Swinging.

Maybe Hogan was a Switter?

[12 piece bucket]

I don't want to argue the point and It doesn't bother me if he Hit-Swung-Swat-Swit or nibbled on the ball, but are you using the glossary definitions included in the 6th Edition?



Maybe Hogan was a Switter?

Not for argument purposes . . . I'm actually not sure about it at this point . . . I just see some distinctly different shoulder motion from Hogan than others . . . HOw about this . .

Can you give us definitions and examples (pics maybe) of Flywheel motion vs. Backstop/Launching Pad?

Gotta get ready to burst out to work . . . but I'll chime in too.

[david sandridge]

Ok bucket are you saying the right shoulder follows the left elbow pocket or does it drive it. I guess swinging you could follow it or in hitting you could drive it. How does this relate to the "mind in the hands". Perhaps this type of swing thought could prevent the OTT move or the underplane problem. I anxiously await further flywheel and platform explanations. Once I've gottem then pray for a break in the temp so I can go to the range. Sorry you have to work bucket. I am going to sit by the fire all day like most old folks.

[12 piece bucket]

Ok bucket are you saying the right shoulder follows the left elbow pocket or does it drive it. I guess swinging you could follow it or in hitting you could drive it. How does this relate to the "mind in the hands". Perhaps this type of swing thought could prevent the OTT move or the underplane problem. I anxiously await further flywheel and platform explanations. Once I've gottem then pray for a break in the temp so I can go to the range. Sorry you have to work bucket. I am going to sit by the fire all day like most old folks.

I'd say "drives" and "supports" in terms of motion and geometry . . . right shoulder is part of the power package right? . . . Also this whole deal with the right shoulder supporting/driving or whatever we wanna call it the left arm is very much in line with Hogan's pane of glass . . . the pane of glass was NOT the swing plane . . . it was the hands being UNDERNEATH the pane which is THE PLANE THE SHOULDERS TURN ON . . . your hands were to be UNDER THE PANE (SHOULDERS) never BUST THROUGH . . . Shoulders ON TOP . . .

[KevCarter]

A picture I found of Hogan late in life. I think a very good case can be made that the right shoulder is still in line to drive the main lever of the power package here at P5.



Steve Stricker working on similar alignments at top?

[12 piece bucket]

A picture I found of Hogan late in life. I think a very good case can be made that the right shoulder is still in line to drive the main lever of the power package here at P5.



Steve Stricker working on similar alignments at top?

NICE . . . still able to do it when old and crusty and still on a busted set of 170 year old wheels . . .

If you look at those pics of Fowler and Rose in comparison . . . there is definitely some differences in how their right arms and shoulders are working . . . not saying those cats are "wrong" . . both are amazing talents . . . but which of the 3 has the right shoulder providing the most "support" for the release motion of the right arm?

[KevCarter]

NICE . . . still able to do it when old and crusty and still on a busted set of 170 year old wheels . . .

If you look at those pics of Fowler and Rose in comparison . . . there is definitely some differences in how their right arms and shoulders are working . . . not saying those cats are "wrong" . . both are amazing talents . . . but which of the 3 has the right shoulder providing the most "support" for the release motion of the right arm?

I see it. Very important stuff Bucket!

Possibly why some really good teachers of the machine are able to look so lazy through impact while still generating massive power? Alignments and Sequencing!!!

Kevin

[O.B.Left]

. . . Also this whole deal with the right shoulder supporting/driving or whatever we wanna call it the left arm is very much in line with Hogan's pane of glass . . . the pane of glass was NOT the swing plane . . . it was the hands being UNDERNEATH the pane which is THE PLANE THE SHOULDERS TURN ON . . . your hands were to be UNDER THE PANE (SHOULDERS) never BUST THROUGH . . . Shoulders ON TOP . . .

I cant find my 5 lessons did Hogan really equate the pane of glass to the Plane the Shoulders turn on? That pretty darn steep, I dont recollect him doing that.....That'd be steeper than Rotated wouldnt it?

One thing I gotta note: The Right Shoulder is part of the Power Package in that it takes the Power Package the Hands down the Inclined Plane in Startdown. The right shoulder Drags, the Power Package down the Inclined Plane .....towards the ball, briefly during Startdown. This move relates to "Startdown Waggles" and/or Mr Hogans demonstration of what he termed "the most important move in golf" in the Shells WW of Golf video available on this site.

For you to have your Right Shoulder take the Left Arm Down the Inclined Plane you'd have to have your Right Shoulder , Left Arm and Hands all on the Inclined Plane, no? A "Left Arm Plane" as opposed to a Turned Shoulder Plane. Which would require a zeroing of #3 Angle too wouldnt it? Moe came kinda close maybe but didnt get all the way there.

The Right Shoulder taking the Hands down plane while the Left ARm is not on plane is far more common Id say. A necessary move for those who dont want to start down with their arms or hands......"hitting from the top" as its commonly known. "Swinging from the Feet" on the other hand, as Homer referred to it, the Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1, is classic Hogan. In fact in regard to this Sequence Homer said "now you take Hogan , THE ideal...." .

I believe Homer had Hogan in mind when it comes to the description of Drag Loading in Startdown and Swinging from the Feet.

But that isnt to say he didnt Thrust in Release ...... 4B Hit. Our own Ted Fort and Lynn Blake Hit with a Swingers Startdown , Drag then Drive. (Although they can both Drive Load 3B Hit if they want to). In the former the Right Shoulder keeps on moving , in the latter it hangs back and backstops the Thrust .....Launching Pad.

So Id personally say that if MR Hogan is hitting its after a Drag Loading , Swingers Startdown. Longitudinal is clearly evident , Active Left Wrist , Pitch Elbow so if he is Thrusting right at the bottom it with a lot of Swingers Components.

So the million dollar question then becomes ..........if he is Thrusting , Actively unbending his Right Arm in a Throwing like manner (no way is it a linear thrust ...which is a huge misconception about the Hitters Right ARm motion in Total Motion ......linear Push Basic is for Basic Motion only, maybe you could do it in Acquired too I guess). Sorry Ill start it again:

If he is Thrusting , what is he thrusting against? What pressure point? For it to be #1 he's really poorly aligned with his Pitch Elbow, isnt he? Any one ready to enter the Lab with an X Classification Throw or similar? I've got an idea but its a weird one.

[david sandridge]

OK guys good stuff...... But since I can't get out on the range I don't want to get confused.
Ok I have taken the club back and am ready to start the downswing. I have been taught the following by TGM teachers.
Plant my heel and my right shoulder goes to the ball. My hands go to the ball accelerating the club longitudinally. I have been encouraged to swing flatter so that "the club should feel like it is coming out of the center of my back" ie on the elbow plane. So I am trying to put all this together with some of the thoughts you have posted. My question is if I start down with the shoulder going to the ball, my hands going to the ball and I am going to spin the flywheel with the swinging procedure how is that going to feel like the club is coming out of the center of my back as it appears Hogan's does. Once the shoulder and the hands start at the ball it seems the die is cast and its going to feel everything is coming off of the right shoulder. Of course if I have abducted my right arm to my side I know I have flattened my plane. and when viewed down the line it might look like the club is coming from my mid back. To further complicate these feels is the feeling of the right forearm on plane with the shaft at address and through out the backswing vs setting up with the hands lower at address. Going even further is working in the hands feeling high or low at impact !!!. So I hope you keep discussing this so it makes more sense to me.

[12 piece bucket]

I cant find my 5 lessons did Hogan really equate the pane of glass to the Plane the Shoulders turn on? That pretty darn steep, I dont recollect him doing that.....That'd be steeper than Rotated wouldnt it?

One thing I gotta note: The Right Shoulder is part of the Power Package in that it takes the Power Package the Hands down the Inclined Plane in Startdown. The right shoulder Drags, the Power Package down the Inclined Plane .....towards the ball, briefly during Startdown. This move relates to "Startdown Waggles" and/or Mr Hogans demonstration of what he termed "the most important move in golf" in the Shells WW of Golf video available on this site.

Sure forget about the angle . . . The principle is the hands never GET ABOVE THE SHOULDER LINE. Shoulder stay on top of the hands and arms . . .

The start down waggle .. . . . you watch that video . . . what he demonstrates and what he does . . . COMPLETELY DIFFERENT . . . . Hogans right shoulder DOES NOT DROP DOWN VERTICALLY EARLY AND HIS HIPS SPIN EARLY . . . DON'T HAPPEN . . . everybody looks at him doing them super slow mo demonstration swings . . . he didn't swing like that either . . .

Hogan thought he did this . . . .
FEEL


But he REALLY did this . . .
REAL