How terribly close is hitting and swinging?

[6bmike]

I'm out of the answers you want.
I do know that when you put (Action) the correct alignments in Motion, it all works.
I'm not Homer, I'm not Yoda. They are the teachers, I'm just a student with a loud typewriter.

[bts]

"Lag" needs to be sustained through the grip by pushing in "hitting" or by pulling in "swinging", or by both in "switting".

[Bagger Lance]

Mike.. I think it makes sense to me at least for the finger to be Hooked for swinger..

Due to the Pitch elbow. and Karate chop... the Hook trigger finger places the PP 3 directly behind the Plane of action ... or the ARC of Circular motion.

While for a Hitter , the right hand is relatively more Perpendicular to the plane of action. also caused the PUNCH elbow and the "primary lever assembly" ... if assembled together. Put the pp3 behind the Angle of Thrust ..

Like a Jigsaw puzzle.. One puzzle fit to another puzzle..and it all made more and more sense.

Nuke - As long as you have a pressure point 3 in the right place, the shape of the right index finger around the shaft doesn't matter in hitting or swinging. It can be helpful to have it hooked if you prefer a lagging takeaway.

As Mike mentioned, Lynn explains pp3 loading very well in the gallery.

[12 piece bucket]

Mike, appreciate your thought . Which do you think is Off mark?

Is what you meant the Axe, low speed thrust, overlapping release, release type, trigger delay, throws, Muscular , shorter and vice versa? The characteristics? And what I am trying to say ... regardless if its a HIT or a swing.. we can do both hinges , overlapping or sequential release,

Say Tom Watson is a swinger with highly overlapped release, Bobby Clamppett is a Angled hinge Swinger..Ted fort can do a Horizontal Hit stroke if he likes. Even Un-characteristic of a swing or hit can still be introduced to a stroke and still be called a swinging or hitting by Homer Kelly.

So what really differs a swinger and a hitter ? what are important changes? Thats what i am trying to sort out

So far my conclusion is, we only need to change 3 following things to differ a hit and swing;

1. the way the extensor action ( or acc 1) apply on primary/secondary lever assembly, making it "Active" and "Passive". but the right elbow keep pushing and keep the extensor action ON, at all time .
2. the way the PP#3 is placed( side or top aft), to be driven actively or passively.
3. the punch/pitch Elbow position ,

this 3 changes alone will change the CORE Mechanics/Action between a swing and a HIT in TGM terms, in any case with a pivot delivery stroke, without question?( including cause and effect of the characteristic of hitting and swinging which everyone is familiar with, like we do not need to think the back swing shorter or longer, muscular thrust or throwaway,active or passive tricep+ many other characteristics , it automatically applies),

However , the Execution/Motion is very much the same with just 3 changes... Hum... anybody understand what i am trying to express?

Thats what I am trying to ask...

Give me more clue . Master Comdpa.. not sure where your aiming at...

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

[SECGolf]

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. [b]And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.


Any thoughts on this?

Thoughts:

Motion of the triceps related area : yes the same (same appearance)
Behavior of the triceps (the muscle) : about as different as you can get.
Hitting: Muscle is producing force
Swinging: Muscle is NOT producing force. Triceps is allowing the motion of the elbow that throw out produces (triceps not preventing or producing motion).

[nuke99]

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

Yes Bucket ~

I quite understand the mechanics of hitting and swinging their differences .. Master Yoda, Ted and Justin did a A plus plus job on that ..

My intention is not to repeat and explain what Master Yoda, Ted and Justin had explained in the past.. I am am thinking of what they had explained and the application . HOW they connects, thus the cause and effect . SO... please people.. don't get scared just because I try to explain it another way. Its still the same thing.

The pitch and punch elbow differs because on how it supports the assembly . So I do not really agree that you can hit or swing with both because its also a cause and effect of an alignment.

For example ... For ANY hitters ...in the full swing the right elbow doesn't really start Pushing from the end or top to after impact, they retain the accumulator 1 till waist height or mid swing whatever ( depending on the release point etc) ... The Pivot still need to PULL the arms and right shoulder "Throws"/push the power package, but because of the support of the primary assembly the right shoulder becomes a backstop. Not by intent, its automatic . So Every Hitter is a switter? Because I think we are missing the very obvious.the left pulls, the right push , no matter what. We cannot call that switting, its just Hitting with a delivery stroke . Thus its so similar in that sense..

NOW ... stay with me for a moment. Bucket ! what i am trying to say

Hitting is by Powering and delivering the PRIMARY ASSEMBLY. The right tricep( and forearm ) supports the primary assembly and makes the triangle rigid. The right elbow naturally becomes both Accumulator 1 and Extensor action and naturally become punch elbow .7-3. not by intention.. it have to happen due to the geometry ..

Swinging is by Throwing and delivering the SECONDARY ASSEMBLY . The right tricep (and forearm) supports the secondary assembly the triangle is not rigid .. NO matter how you stretch and push this assembly , the right elbow CANNOT BECOME ACCUMULATOR ONE. It only stays as Extensor Action . Due to this geometry.. The elbow naturally becomes a pitch elbow.. Because of the way the Forearm support the assembly...7-3 ...

SO ,,, I think hitting and swinging.. That are the Cause when we apply .. I believe that other component , effect , would naturally fall into place .. If you see what I mean.

( THOUGH i would bring out one point, is it possible for the Swingers to pull the thumb and strengthen the support of primary assembly as well? I think yes !... Only if he understood the role of the tricep and forearm to support the secondary assembly! IF the arm and hand are educated well, its very ok! But I did not want to bring this point in afraid to confuse my point)



Therefore another way of saying is .. THE DIFFERENCE that you highlighted above are mostly EFFECT... Not that you try to "artificially" create this EFFECT. And thats where alot of people get into trouble .. It should not be done that way.THUS 7-3 , 61BD, how the extensor action/forearm support the assembly is a CAUSE. Of course, delivery line shift etc , instant hip acceleration are part and puzzle but best to leave them for another day.

So now , is it possible to HIT or Swing at the same time? ... Yes... but what for ? and NO, its just not possible unless you want a throwaway and if your forearm and tricep knows their role ..

please think about it ...Then I am happy to be proven otherwise ..


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Bagger,

Thank you for the answer an the extreme patience ! .. , look is not so different. Again... I am just trying to say.. the position of the PP3 is really "an EFFECT", of how the forearm support the secondary assembly, have to use that position if we want to drive the PP3 behind the shaft, down the plane. HK did mention it but in other words.

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6mike,

I thank you for helping me out here.. It doesn't go forgotten.


Note :

I am trying to explain what I now think,

TO differentiate a swing and a HIT. its not trying simply to match up the 24 component in chapter 12 or get the "motion"and you get a hit or a swing... ,

ie , "Activate " your accumulator 1 to become a hit or a swing, create instant hip acceleration ,load the shaft like a rope or axe , put your elbow this way blah blah.( i believe some people here thinks that way and it became "POSITION" GOLF doesn't it ?). Simply NOT it , These are EFFECTS and not meant to be Artificially created. This way of analogy and the way to apply, explain the ESSENCE of the book is WRONG to me .

I think its slightly more than that. We need to understand the Cause.. and there is the Effect which happens because there is a cause ...and 7-3 is the central of all explanation in the geometry and component of TGM swing and hit, flying wedge.

[bts]

The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".

[Bagger Lance]

Nuke,

I finally managed to get your video message working. Thanks for clarifying your theory about extensor action in hitting and swinging.

I don't completely agree with your view on the roll of extensor action in swinging. As I mentioned before, Extensor Action is the same for both hitting and swinging. It is only concerned with the arms, not the clubshaft. From a limited standpoint, you can use extensor action with pp#3, but it's use is generally for chip shots. Better off reserving #3 for sensing clubhead lag.

At the top, elbow position is based on the loading. The load is always behind the shaft. Swingers and hitters differ in their loading hence the elbow positions are different, but the load is still directly behind the shaft for both.

Through release, elbow position "effect" is more about hand motion. If the right palm is facing up during release, the forearm/elbow is more pitch. If the right palm is facing the ball, the punch elbow is "in effect".

The pitch/punch elbow release effects are usually a result of the 4-D-0 hand motions of swingers and hitters during release. Swivel and Roll or lack thereof.

This is all in preparation for supporting lag pressure, behind the shaft, through impact.

Again, I really like your thinking and attempt to sort these things out. Let the incubator take over and the answers will come.

Oh, and I wouldn't ever humilate you. You have to exceed my total post number before becoming a target and so far, only one guy is in my crosshairs. (Here comes another Public Group joke). I can read him like a book.

Besides, you're too nice of a guy.

[6bmike]

Alignments Flow, positions don't.

Homer was not against positions in golf, he was against "fixed" position golf. Here is the difference- again, I lead you to the "Where is pp3" video. One of the reasons I made that clip from that part Yoda’s class was because Lynn covered several key points in the span of a few minutes. Load, Lag Pressure, Normal Force, PP3, Line of Sight, Accumulator Roll, 10-2 Single and Strong grip. Where else can you get this stuff? And about the difference between alignment and position golf.

“If you are in Position Golf it becomes an Elbow thing, if you are in Alignment Golf it becomes a Loading thing.”

G.O.L.F. has positions, the ones that alignments produce. The ones the Action flows through. It is not the positions of an eight step program or what an instruction feels your top position must look like. Produce the alignments and don’t fret about what needs to go where.

[nuke99]

Thanks Bagger and Mike.

Its always a challenge to think and connect in different methods.

Another having fun day in LBG


Oh Btw, there is no stamp of approval on this thread.. Treat it as reference, just another point of view. i suggest.