How terribly close is hitting and swinging?

[nuke99]

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

Yes Bucket ~

I quite understand the mechanics of hitting and swinging their differences .. Master Yoda, Ted and Justin did a A plus plus job on that ..

My intention is not to repeat and explain what Master Yoda, Ted and Justin had explained in the past.. I am am thinking of what they had explained and the application . HOW they connects, thus the cause and effect . SO... please people.. don't get scared just because I try to explain it another way. Its still the same thing.

The pitch and punch elbow differs because on how it supports the assembly . So I do not really agree that you can hit or swing with both because its also a cause and effect of an alignment.

For example ... For ANY hitters ...in the full swing the right elbow doesn't really start Pushing from the end or top to after impact, they retain the accumulator 1 till waist height or mid swing whatever ( depending on the release point etc) ... The Pivot still need to PULL the arms and right shoulder "Throws"/push the power package, but because of the support of the primary assembly the right shoulder becomes a backstop. Not by intent, its automatic . So Every Hitter is a switter? Because I think we are missing the very obvious.the left pulls, the right push , no matter what. We cannot call that switting, its just Hitting with a delivery stroke . Thus its so similar in that sense..

NOW ... stay with me for a moment. Bucket ! what i am trying to say

Hitting is by Powering and delivering the PRIMARY ASSEMBLY. The right tricep( and forearm ) supports the primary assembly and makes the triangle rigid. The right elbow naturally becomes both Accumulator 1 and Extensor action and naturally become punch elbow .7-3. not by intention.. it have to happen due to the geometry ..

Swinging is by Throwing and delivering the SECONDARY ASSEMBLY . The right tricep (and forearm) supports the secondary assembly the triangle is not rigid .. NO matter how you stretch and push this assembly , the right elbow CANNOT BECOME ACCUMULATOR ONE. It only stays as Extensor Action . Due to this geometry.. The elbow naturally becomes a pitch elbow.. Because of the way the Forearm support the assembly...7-3 ...

SO ,,, I think hitting and swinging.. That are the Cause when we apply .. I believe that other component , effect , would naturally fall into place .. If you see what I mean.

( THOUGH i would bring out one point, is it possible for the Swingers to pull the thumb and strengthen the support of primary assembly as well? I think yes !... Only if he understood the role of the tricep and forearm to support the secondary assembly! IF the arm and hand are educated well, its very ok! But I did not want to bring this point in afraid to confuse my point)



Therefore another way of saying is .. THE DIFFERENCE that you highlighted above are mostly EFFECT... Not that you try to "artificially" create this EFFECT. And thats where alot of people get into trouble .. It should not be done that way.THUS 7-3 , 61BD, how the extensor action/forearm support the assembly is a CAUSE. Of course, delivery line shift etc , instant hip acceleration are part and puzzle but best to leave them for another day.

So now , is it possible to HIT or Swing at the same time? ... Yes... but what for ? and NO, its just not possible unless you want a throwaway and if your forearm and tricep knows their role ..

please think about it ...Then I am happy to be proven otherwise ..


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Bagger,

Thank you for the answer an the extreme patience ! .. , look is not so different. Again... I am just trying to say.. the position of the PP3 is really "an EFFECT", of how the forearm support the secondary assembly, have to use that position if we want to drive the PP3 behind the shaft, down the plane. HK did mention it but in other words.

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6mike,

I thank you for helping me out here.. It doesn't go forgotten.


Note :

I am trying to explain what I now think,

TO differentiate a swing and a HIT. its not trying simply to match up the 24 component in chapter 12 or get the "motion"and you get a hit or a swing... ,

ie , "Activate " your accumulator 1 to become a hit or a swing, create instant hip acceleration ,load the shaft like a rope or axe , put your elbow this way blah blah.( i believe some people here thinks that way and it became "POSITION" GOLF doesn't it ?). Simply NOT it , These are EFFECTS and not meant to be Artificially created. This way of analogy and the way to apply, explain the ESSENCE of the book is WRONG to me .

I think its slightly more than that. We need to understand the Cause.. and there is the Effect which happens because there is a cause ...and 7-3 is the central of all explanation in the geometry and component of TGM swing and hit, flying wedge.

[bts]

The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".

[Bagger Lance]

Nuke,

I finally managed to get your video message working. Thanks for clarifying your theory about extensor action in hitting and swinging.

I don't completely agree with your view on the roll of extensor action in swinging. As I mentioned before, Extensor Action is the same for both hitting and swinging. It is only concerned with the arms, not the clubshaft. From a limited standpoint, you can use extensor action with pp#3, but it's use is generally for chip shots. Better off reserving #3 for sensing clubhead lag.

At the top, elbow position is based on the loading. The load is always behind the shaft. Swingers and hitters differ in their loading hence the elbow positions are different, but the load is still directly behind the shaft for both.

Through release, elbow position "effect" is more about hand motion. If the right palm is facing up during release, the forearm/elbow is more pitch. If the right palm is facing the ball, the punch elbow is "in effect".

The pitch/punch elbow release effects are usually a result of the 4-D-0 hand motions of swingers and hitters during release. Swivel and Roll or lack thereof.

This is all in preparation for supporting lag pressure, behind the shaft, through impact.

Again, I really like your thinking and attempt to sort these things out. Let the incubator take over and the answers will come.

Oh, and I wouldn't ever humilate you. You have to exceed my total post number before becoming a target and so far, only one guy is in my crosshairs. (Here comes another Public Group joke). I can read him like a book.

Besides, you're too nice of a guy.

[6bmike]

Alignments Flow, positions don't.

Homer was not against positions in golf, he was against "fixed" position golf. Here is the difference- again, I lead you to the "Where is pp3" video. One of the reasons I made that clip from that part Yoda’s class was because Lynn covered several key points in the span of a few minutes. Load, Lag Pressure, Normal Force, PP3, Line of Sight, Accumulator Roll, 10-2 Single and Strong grip. Where else can you get this stuff? And about the difference between alignment and position golf.

“If you are in Position Golf it becomes an Elbow thing, if you are in Alignment Golf it becomes a Loading thing.”

G.O.L.F. has positions, the ones that alignments produce. The ones the Action flows through. It is not the positions of an eight step program or what an instruction feels your top position must look like. Produce the alignments and don’t fret about what needs to go where.

[nuke99]

Thanks Bagger and Mike.

Its always a challenge to think and connect in different methods.

Another having fun day in LBG


Oh Btw, there is no stamp of approval on this thread.. Treat it as reference, just another point of view. i suggest.

[Bagger Lance]

Thanks Bagger and Mike.

Its always a challenge to think and connect in different methods.

Another having fun day in LBG

We still may not be getting what you are after. In any case, here's a related thread that you were involved in.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=4653

At a minimum I hope all of this helps others.

[nuke99]

Bagger,

As I recalled the Audio tapes when Homer was asked. Why the Swinger can only be Accumulator 4 2 3 and not 4 barrel? His answer is there is no point?

Part of my Video message is trying to explain my understanding of that.

====o=====

Another point I am trying to make is how does that difference affect Other parts of the components.

We don't get into that required Alignment( or position) just because its compatible ... its also because of how the Forearm is Aligned , loaded, and supported in the first place. Those alignment becomes, an effect.


Have some fun and think about it.

[Bagger Lance]

Nuke -

Your premise is (correct me if I'm wrong):
Swingers use pressure point 3 for extensor action to pull the clubshaft to the top of the swing and hitters use pressure point 1. Because of this, the flying wedge structure differs for hitters and swingers during the loading process. As a result the elbow naturally folds into a pitch position for swingers and a punch position for hitters.
The rest of your premise is that if a swinger has a pitch elbow, it is impossible to execute a hitting action from that position.

In my opinion, it may appear to work that way in your motion (per your video) but since you are starting with an unusual use of extensor action, several other components are going to be effected. I very much agree that all components flow together but I'm afraid you are starting with the wrong assumptions. But this wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong either.

• The pull of extensor action is not down the clubshaft, it is down the left arm. The pull of extensor action must be below the clubshaft plane unless you are completely zero'ing out the #3 accumulator angle.
• The two ends of the rope for extensor action are the left shoulder joint and the left wrist (flail).
• You can use use #3 to pull the left arm straight, but Homer warns of the danger in the extra pressure causing throw-away (flipping the clubhead). So he only recommends it for short shots.
• Elbow position in the backstroke is a function of clubhead lag loading and if the intent is to drive or drag. (See the video link in 6BMikes post).
• Swingers and Hitters can use punch or pitch elbows.

Maybe it would help to clarify "Extensor Action Takeaway" in 10-19-0
Folks like Yoda, Ted, and our Professional Contributors have had a lot more time digging this stuff out of the dirt than I have.

Others chime in, but there you have my humble opinion. I love extensor action, but I think you are putting much more into it than it really is.